tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post6947679977932013002..comments2023-04-24T15:27:11.263-04:00Comments on Avzel's journal: Hochschild on affirmative actionavzelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08936752232469893943noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-79239165137870175272011-09-19T22:03:34.381-04:002011-09-19T22:03:34.381-04:00Clarissa: то есть, Вы думаете, что в нашем (США) о...Clarissa: то есть, Вы думаете, что в нашем (США) обществе по-прежнему царит дискриминация по расовому признаку, так что АА необходима чтобы, хотя бы как-то противодействовать этому? Мне так не кажется.avzelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08936752232469893943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-50320337903779000522011-09-19T21:40:35.881-04:002011-09-19T21:40:35.881-04:00"Ethnic and racial criteria should have nothi..."Ethnic and racial criteria should have nothing to do with access to mathematics either."<br /><br />-Of course. But they do. Hence, the need for Affirmative Action.Clarissahttp://clarissasblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-39813678607698637592011-09-16T16:17:02.611-04:002011-09-16T16:17:02.611-04:00Миша, и за, и против АА можно привести массу аргум...Миша, и за, и против АА можно привести массу аргументов (те, что против, мне кажутся более убедительными). Отношение к этому зависит еще и от жизненного опыта людей. В мои студенческие годы, дискриминация нежелательных национальностей проводилась под лозунгом "приведем национальный состав МГУ в соответствие с национальным составом всей страны". Так что у меня с тех пор к процентному avzelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08936752232469893943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-57783760597924124632011-09-15T07:28:36.839-04:002011-09-15T07:28:36.839-04:001. Affirmative action is not about hiring poorly q...1. Affirmative action is not about hiring poorly qualified candidates. It is about choosing minority candidates between otherwise equal. If some people misuse this terminology, it should be addressed to those people, not to the affirmative action in general.<br /><br />2. Good working environment includes not being constantly ranked based on performance. Do you know particular departments where Misha Mazinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14361847042991866400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-23621371920776270942011-09-14T13:01:05.129-04:002011-09-14T13:01:05.129-04:00Dear Misha Mazin,
Do you agree that the presence ...Dear Misha Mazin,<br /><br />Do you agree that the presence of poorly qualified graduate students admitted because of their race or ethnicity helps to promote the stereotypes rather than to dispel them? Do you think that a minority professor in the Math department who is visibly inferior to his colleagues, helps to encourage young people of his race to do Math? And what are social barriers which Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-25284279987938173572011-09-14T12:42:03.424-04:002011-09-14T12:42:03.424-04:00There is no doubt that right now the affirmative a...There is no doubt that right now the affirmative action policies might decrease the average level of, say, math graduate students. The idea is that it will pay off in the future, because of the increased pool of people who might consider doing mathematics after some of the social barriers are removed.Misha Mazinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14361847042991866400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-49407029440874016732011-09-14T11:28:20.438-04:002011-09-14T11:28:20.438-04:00Dear Misha Mazin,
Do you have any evidence of soc...Dear Misha Mazin,<br /><br />Do you have any evidence of social pressure among mathematicians to have negative professional opinion about any race or ethnicity? Do you suggest that mathematicians are predisposed to mistreat any race?<br /><br />In practice, affirmative action forces the departments to admit poorly qualified graduate students, many of whom will fail in their studies. How does thisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-86112694899473592162011-09-14T11:16:01.316-04:002011-09-14T11:16:01.316-04:00What do you mean by discrimination? I'm mostly...What do you mean by discrimination? I'm mostly talking here about social pressure, certain stereotypes, which affects our opinion about people, in particular, professional opinion, subconsciously. The idea of the affirmative action is to fight those stereotypes by artificially increasing the proportion of the underrepresented minorities.Misha Mazinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14361847042991866400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-90438450354420064662011-09-14T10:45:44.314-04:002011-09-14T10:45:44.314-04:00Dear Misha Mazin,
If a particular committee is di...Dear Misha Mazin,<br /><br />If a particular committee is discriminating on the basis of race or ethnicity, then this should be addressed with the members of that committee. Why should the remedy be the discrimination of innocent applicants of other races? We do not punish innocents for the guilt of others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-41912987541767210792011-09-14T10:32:22.136-04:002011-09-14T10:32:22.136-04:00That would be absolutely right under assumption th...That would be absolutely right under assumption that without those policies the committees will be able to make decisions independent on the those criteria. Unfortunately, the assumption is false.Misha Mazinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14361847042991866400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-28180436068289232652011-09-14T08:33:52.825-04:002011-09-14T08:33:52.825-04:00Dear Clarissa,
Ethnic and racial criteria should ...Dear Clarissa,<br /><br />Ethnic and racial criteria should have nothing to do with access to mathematics either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-64596927489504684952011-09-14T06:34:37.711-04:002011-09-14T06:34:37.711-04:00Пусть государство напечатает ещё процентов!Пусть государство напечатает ещё процентов!Simon Hawkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11824329687840449902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-54957410763328178462011-09-13T23:25:53.327-04:002011-09-13T23:25:53.327-04:00В связи с "положительным" и "отрица...В связи с "положительным" и "отрицательным" расизмом вспомнилось письмо в редакцию тех же Notices, написанное несколько лет назад другим замечательным математиком (кстати, тоже из Беркли) David Gale (к сожалению, тоже покойным). Не без пикантности, в письме, рассчитанном на математическую аудиторию, он объяснил, что, так как общее число процентов фиксировано, то призывы к avzelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08936752232469893943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-47560388559483311342011-09-13T23:12:48.235-04:002011-09-13T23:12:48.235-04:00To have access to mathematics, нужны рабфаки. А не...To have access to mathematics, нужны рабфаки. А не "обратная дискриминация".Simon Hawkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11824329687840449902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-32837088641495107782011-09-13T22:47:52.474-04:002011-09-13T22:47:52.474-04:00Unfortunately, Hochschild is dead, so we don't...Unfortunately, Hochschild is dead, so we don't know how he would react to this argument.avzelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08936752232469893943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4049018105272921172.post-14936925464594914412011-09-13T22:23:06.161-04:002011-09-13T22:23:06.161-04:00Nobody says that ethnic and racial criteria should...Nobody says that ethnic and racial criteria should have a place in mathematics. Affirmative Action is about having access to mathematics. There is a huge difference among the two ideas.Clarissahttp://clarissasblog.comnoreply@blogger.com